darters and natives

[aulonocaraaddict]

Does anyone have any darters or small fish like that that they are currently keeping or have an abundance of?

[etheonut]

I don't keep any in captivity, but I know a place or two where they can be seen/collected in the wild. Why do you ask?

Kevin

[aulonocaraaddict]

Well I have a tank with fry in it now that will be moved out soon and was thinking about making it into a river like tank with little native fishies.

[Sundance]

I'm in! (*hoping that Kevin is about to say what I hope he's going to say.)

[etheonut]

Ok, now everyone needs to give me $50. (grins at Sundance)

Where abouts do you live Aulonocara and are you willing to travel a bit to find natives? If so I am more than willing to take you to find some on a weekend.

Kevin

[aulonocaraaddict]

I live in bentonville. You guys are so funny. I WISH I could go collecting but that's not an option right now with my little ones thank you for offering! I was hoping that someone had some extras and would just charge me a capture fee. I did do some collecting for research in oklahoma when I was in school and I believe I may still have the sein. I loved it! So much fun!

[mewickham]

Depending on how old the little ones are, you could take them along on a collecting trip. Our group collecting trips have always been family gatherings, with youngsters along for the fun.

Myself, I haven't kept any of the natives I've caught. I've just done it for fun and education. I'm planning to buy one of those small underwater cameras to add to the fun on collecting trips this year.

[aulonocaraaddict]

My little ones are way to young. So do any of you actually keep any natives or do you suggest not to? If you don't think its a good idea then I could always just do guppies or mollies. I just thought the darters would be neat.

[etheonut]

They are a good aquarium fish. I only don't keep them because they live in my backyard.

I will make sure you have some in your aquarium soon.

Let me know the details of your tank that you are wanting to keep them in.

Kevin

[aulonocaraaddict]

Haha back yard is a good idea! What do you keep if you don't mind me asking? Thanks so much!

[mewickham]

I mostly don't keep natives for the same reason as Kevin. They don't seem so exotic when I can catch my own. But they have been tempting me, so I might set some up this spring. There are some darters that are really appealing. And if my favorite, sticklebacks, were available to catch around here, I know I'd have a tank set up. Wait, no. For some reason, sticklebacks are illegal in Arkansas.

[aulonocaraaddict]

When I first got my aquarium I was wanting to do all natives but got pulled back because some get so large. I think some sunfish would look nice in there. Are there any darters that are illegal? I love the orange throat darters. I typed in a search for them and it brought up sundances blog!! Very nice by the way sundance! I was thinking why didn't you keep it for me haha. How big do the darters get? Sex differences? There's not a ton of info coming up on them?

[etheonut]

They are obviously dimorphic in color for the sexes. They require a high quality frozen food. They can easily be kept in a ten gallon aquarium. Breeding them is possible but requires a seasonal cool down and very meaty foods. Getting orange throat darters is not a problem.

Kevin

[aulonocaraaddict]

Yay I'm so excited!! Those guys are so awesome! Do you think the powerhead would be needed? I keep lots of frozen food for the fry and for treats for my bigger fishies. I love to spoil them

[etheonut]

Powerhead isn't needed and would only add heat to the aquarium. You want to keep these guys as cool as you possibly can.

Kevin

[sumpnfishy]

I won't disagree with Kevin, but...while a powerhead is not necessary, vigorous water movement is. Even room temperature can be too warm if the water is not well oxygenated. I actually prefer powerheads because the darters love to sit in the current and if you have enough water movement at the surface that easily overcomes the added heat.
I've also found that some species will survive the temps just fine but have such a high metabolism at higher temperatures that it becomes very difficult to feed them enough. Luckily orangethroats are not one of these.

[etheonut]

Rigorous water movement is only necessary for a limited number of darters. Orange throat darters are not one of those from my observation and experiences. Oxygen is essential for keeping these guys, but that can be achieved much more easily by adding an air stone for rigorous water movement. Attach that to a sponge filter and you have biological filtration and oxygenation without adding any heat at all.

If you are talented with pvc pipes you can still get some current from an air stone even.

Michael and I have both seen darters wither away to nothing while eating large amounts of food because the temperatures were simply too high in the water. Keep in mind that a fishes metabolism is directly tied to the water temperature. Small darters already have a high metabolism, if you raise the temperature too much you are asking for trouble.

Kevin

[aulonocaraaddict]

I am pretty handy with pvc. how do you suggest doing it? I also have a undergravel airstone that goes the length of the aquarium. I actually have all kinds of extra stuff lol. Thanks for all of the great points. I keep the temp set on 68 in the house and with no direct sunlight do you think the aquarium will stay cool enough? I sure dont want to hurt the little guys! I should probably start another thread but is it illegal to keep game fish that you catch as food (trout and so on) as aquarium fish? I have heard all kinds of answers and Im sure you guys would know for sure. thanks!

[mewickham]

Kevin, since you mentioned a sponge filter, another trick is to use that Hydro-Sponge brand that has the one-inch lift tubes. Buy an undergravel filter exhaust spout for it and you can direct the flow laterally.

[sumpnfishy]

Game fish can be kept if you use proper methods, i.e. hook and line. You can't keep game fish that you catch in a seine. That being said, as long as that fish is in your tank you have to have a current license and that fish is always part of your possession limit. Technically that is true of baitfish as well, but the laws aren't quite so tight as they are with game fish.
Also, trout needed a much larger coldwater system to do well. The warmwater species often do well.
As to Kevin's point about vigorous water movement, I don't mean that the darters require moving water so much as you need high surface movement to have a high enough oxygen level in the tank. There are a few backwater species that don't need this so much but only a couple in this area and they aren't all that attractive except to us native fish nuts.

[aulonocaraaddict]

Thanks! That's exactly what I wanted to know. I just used trout as an example. I actually didn't know you couldn't keep the game fish if caught it in a sein. Guess that's cheating huh?! HaHa

[sumpnfishy]

Well, it gets even more confusing when they dictate how big a game fish is. In Missouri as 3 inch bluegill (or other sunfish) is not a gamefish and can be collected with a seine. At 4 inches however they become gamefish and can only be kept if collected with hook and line. What if you collect them at 3 and they grow to 6? Do they "become" gamefish in your aquarium? Other species like bass and trout are gamefish no matter what the size.

[aulonocaraaddict]

Hmmm... I think with the bass it would come down to can we eat them yet?!? my son tells my fish that when they get big he is going to eat them

[Sundance]

Thanks, aulonocara!

Unfortunately, I lost those Darters in the summer, and now I know why...

Michael and I have both seen darters wither away to nothing while eating large amounts of food because the temperatures were simply too high in the water. Keep in mind that a fishes metabolism is directly tied to the water temperature. Small darters already have a high metabolism, if you raise the temperature too much you are asking for trouble.

Kevin

I kept feeding them but they wasted away. I thought it was internal parasites. The tank temp got up to 78 for a month or so and that's when it happened. This year, I have an in-window AC unit to keep the fish room temp regulated. Now I need more Orange Throats! And Shiners! And a Bowfin!

I know a friend of a friend that might be able to give you a Madtom.

Wickham - why are Sticklebacks illegal in AR? To catch? Keep? Both? They are on my bucket list (pun intended)!

[aulonocaraaddict]

Haha like the pun. Sorry you lost the darters. Madtoms are cute. I didn't even know what it was so looked it up. I'd love to have one! Do u think the darters will stay cool enough @ 68 degrees in house?

[sumpnfishy]

68 should be fine. There are several different species of madtoms and they do very well in the aquarium. I really like Checkered but Slender are cool fish as well.
Sundance, you do know bowfin get HUGE right?
As for the sticklebacks, I did not know they were illegal until Mike's post. Good things the ones I got a while back didn't make it! They are illegal to keep or distribute. The statue does not list species so I am assuming it applies to all species. It also lists Mexican tetras, which are an Astyanax species. I assume this is because there some introduced populations in Oklahoma. Interestingly enough the blind cave tetra is the sames species. Does this mean they are illegal as well? Haven't seen those around in years though.

[Sundance]

I'm in the market for a culling fish and I'm thinking a native Bowfin would be great for a 55. I got the idea from a book you (Michael) recommended - Native Fish for the Home Aquarium. Aulo, if you're looking into natives, it is a great book! I got mine off ebay.

ClawsPaws Neosho has some blind "cave fish", I'm not sure if they're Tetras, but Corey would know, he saw them too. That's a shame to hear about the Sticklebacks. I guess it's better than hearing they're endangered.

[sskruzr]

Lucky you Michael, the stickleback police were here recently in Bella Vista and I think they were heading your way.

[aulonocaraaddict]

I will see if the library has it I would love to read it. The bowfin is very cool. On youtube they have an orange spotted snakehead and he looked AMAZING! If you figure out how to get one of those I might consider switching my africans for one of those

[mewickham]

ClawsPaws Neosho has some blind "cave fish", I'm not sure if they're Tetras

Yes, the blind cave fish sold in stores is a tetra. I'd avoid them, though, unless you want to give them their own tank. They can be quite nippy toward other fishes.